Technical aspects of automobiles

To Buff Or Not To Buff???

   The 83 Ranger I just bought has a new green paint job which was done by
the previous owner. The paint is a few months old and kind’a flat. He told
me that he has never rubbed it out, and that I should do that to it. My
experience with paint is limited. I’m a bit confused as to what to do here.
Some people say that you only should buff a car if the paint is oxidized, or
if you can’t get a good shine with a paint protectant/way. What exactly should
I do to this truck, and what products should I use? Am I to buff it out (by
hand or with a buffer?) with a rubbing compound, then protect it with a paint
protectant like Nu Finish, and then wax it with a good wax? I need specific
information on what to do and how to do it! Thanks in advance…

   Tom

    __ "Man steps in with a terminal grin…blue starts turning to grey……
 __/// Young men die…children cry……Why is it always the same?"   – DEVO
 \XX/  "You only punch yourself out..when you start swinging blind."   – DEVO
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posted by admin in Uncategorized and have Comments (24)

24 Responses to “To Buff Or Not To Buff???”

  1. admin says:

    Tom asks…..

       The 83 Ranger I just bought has a new green paint job which was done by
    the previous owner. The paint is a few months old and kind’a flat. He told
    me that he has never rubbed it out, and that I should do that to it. My
    experience with paint is limited. I’m a bit confused as to what to do here.
    Some people say that you only should buff a car if the paint is oxidized, or
    if you can’t get a good shine with a paint protectant/way. What exactly should
    I do to this truck, and what products should I use? Am I to buff it out (by
    hand or with a buffer?) with a rubbing compound, then protect it with a paint
    protectant like Nu Finish, and then wax it with a good wax? I need specific
    information on what to do and how to do it! Thanks in advance…

       Tom

    **********************************************************************
    Generally, the only "paint" requiring buffing to get a good shine is lacquer.
    It is "color sanded" with 600 grit or finer and then rubbed out with rubbing
    compound and finished with polishing compound.

    You description  of the job as "done by the previous owner" makes me think that
    what you have is a classic case of a good con job.  "Just a little work with
    a polisher and it’l shine right up!"  It isn’t easy, but it can be done.
    Try it by hand with some rubbing compound (du Pont 7 comes to mind) until
    the orange peel effect is gone, and then finish it with polishing compound.
    Be extra careful at the high spots, such as creases along the fender.  At
    the high spots, the paint will already be thin and you can polish through it
    and expose the old paint or primer.  If it works, you can then upgrade to a
    power buffer.

    The usual reasons for dull surfaces with new paint (other than lacquer) are
    improper spray techniques, (paint too thick, temperature wrong, wrong thinner,
    wrong application…….. the list goes on)  A good enamel paint job should
    be glossy with a minimum of orange peel.  I suggest that you go to the
    public library and get a book on body work.  If you can’t find one there, you
    should be able to buy one at the auto parts store.

    Have fun and get lots of liniment for those sore muscles you will have.

    Dick Lucas

  2. admin says:

       Dick, "con" has nothing to do with this. The paint simply wasn’t rubbed
    out since it was painter a few months ago. If I have read write, you can’t
    (shouldn’t) even rub the paint out for a while afterwards because it might
    not have had enough time to really harden. I talked to a relative who paints
    cars and he told me to use polishing compound from Turtle Wax. It worked
    great. Rebuilt motor, new clutch, throwout bearing, pressure plate, new
    back brakes, suspension in mint condition, new exhaust, new paint job, sun
    roof, awesome stereo…$1600 (he was asking $1900). Plus I’m selling the
    cap for $175. Con job? Funny, everybody I’ve talked to thinks I got one hell
    of a deal.

       Tom

        __ "Man steps in with a terminal grin…blue starts turning to grey……
     __/// Young men die…children cry……Why is it always the same?"   – DEVO
     \XX/  "You only punch yourself out..when you start swinging blind."   – DEVO
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  3. admin says:

    In article <1992Jan15.151931.17…@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, Thomas Hill writes:
    >    Dick, "con" has nothing to do with this. The paint simply wasn’t rubbed
    > out since it was painter a few months ago.

    If I may interject… :>

    I think Dick’s point was that Lacquer is the only paint that _has_ to be
    rubbed out.  All other paints, if sprayed correctly, shouldn’t need it.
    On the other hand, _nothing_ matches the shine of a multi-layer hand
    rubbed Lacquer finish.  This is why it’s often used on show cars, but
    not on production cars — _very_ labor intensive.

    I doubt that the car in question has Lacquer, most likely
    (acrylic-)enamel.  The fancier paints, used on most new cars, have
    nastier chemicals and/or clear coat: more trouble for an individual to
    apply and, as I understand it, more likely to ruin if you try to buff it
    if it wasn’t applied right.

    From my experience taking evening body shop class, including painting my
    own car,  the most common overall flaw (ignoring things like runs) is orange
    peel probably from too high pressure and/or too thick paint.

    My first time paint job resulted in a glossy coat, but some orange peel.
    :<  So sad.  But! I bit the bullet, color sanded and buffed and now it
    looks great.  I didn’t remove _all_ the orange peel effect because I was
    scared I’d cut through to the primer.
    Even so; with my new `awareness’, I’ve noticed that most new car’s
    factory paint jobs have more orange peel than I had on mine to start
    with!

    >                                    If I have read write, you can’t
    [read write? :>]
    > (shouldn’t) even rub the paint out for a while afterwards because it might
    > not have had enough time to really harden.

    Exactly.  wait at least a month before working on non-lacquer paints.

    >                                    I talked to a relative who paints
    > cars and he told me to use polishing compound from Turtle Wax. It worked
    > great. … . Con job? Funny, everybody I’ve talked to thinks I got  one hell
    > of a deal.

    Well, it’s solved then. Good!
    I was just going to say it may be a `con job’ only to the extent that
    the seller was trivializing the amount of work to buff it out.  It’s
    neither trivial, nor as bad as Dick was implying.

  4. admin says:

    In article <9740…@hpdtczb.dtc.hp.com> d…@hpdtczb.dtc.hp.com (Dick Lucas) writes:
    >Tom asks…..

    >   The 83 Ranger I just bought has a new green paint job which was done by
    >the previous owner. The paint is a few months old and kind’a flat. He told
    >me that he has never rubbed it out, and that I should do that to it. My
    >experience with paint is limited. I’m a bit confused as to what to do here.
    >Some people say that you only should buff a car if the paint is oxidized, or
    >if you can’t get a good shine with a paint protectant/way. What exactly should
    >I do to this truck, and what products should I use? Am I to buff it out (by
    >hand or with a buffer?) with a rubbing compound, then protect it with a paint
    >protectant like Nu Finish, and then wax it with a good wax? I need specific
    >information on what to do and how to do it! Thanks in advance…

    a lot of times, when cars are re-painted, you don’t get the same job
    that they do in the factory (unless you pay big bucks for the job)
    and there is a certain amount of buffing that has to be done to even
    the paint job out and/or to take care of over-spray (this could be on
    the chrome, but even on the paint itself, overspray affects the total
    look of the car/truck
    buffing it out, like detailing it, requires getting a good rubbing
    compound (mr wax, meguairs, wax shop, etc) and a clean cloth – puour
    a little compound onto the clath at a time (you can’t do the whole
    car/truck at once – you need to do it in sections) work it onto the
    area, then turn the cloth and wipe. Continue onwith the next area,              and the next area…until you’re finished.

  5. admin says:

    In article <2904485…@ARTEMIS.cam.nist.gov> mil…@FS1.cam.nist.gov (Bruce R. Miller) writes:

    >In article <1992Jan15.151931.17…@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, Thomas Hill writes:
    >>    Dick, "con" has nothing to do with this. The paint simply wasn’t rubbed
    >> out since it was painter a few months ago.

    >If I may interject… :>

    >I think Dick’s point was that Lacquer is the only paint that _has_ to be
    >rubbed out.  All other paints, if sprayed correctly, shouldn’t need it.
    >On the other hand, _nothing_ matches the shine of a multi-layer hand
    >rubbed Lacquer finish.  This is why it’s often used on show cars, but
    >not on production cars — _very_ labor intensive.

    To my knowledge, GM cars have always had lacquer paint (certainly domestically
    produced models for a large portion of recent history).  Lacquer is much
    harder to do correctly in production, requiring a very high degree of clean-
    liness, but when done right it is definitely great.

    Scott D. Berry, Florida State University Department of Physics
    be…@redbeard.physics.fsu.edu

  6. admin says:

    All this brings up a question I have regarding re-spraying.  I am in the process
    of respraying my car (only have a couple of panels done so far), but the results
    have been less than I’d hoped.  When the paint dried (it’s a rapid drying
    acrylic), the finish was dull.  It wasn’t orange-peeled though.  The painting
    process was to spray about 5 coats, each coat much thinner than the one before,
    putting down each new coat when the one underneath was just tacky.  Due to the
    dull finish, several weeks after spraying I went over the paint with a 1600
    grade wet and dry, followed by cutting compound, followed by polish.  This
    improved the finish considerably, but the paint still appears dull looking.

    Is there anything more I can do to improve the finish?  What am I doing wrong to
    start with?  FYI, the spraying was done on a cold day, with overcast sky.  (All I
    had available at the time).  The weather has warmed up considerably here now, so
    I no longer have reservations about sticking my hand in a bucket of water to do
    more rubbing back, and am wanting to continue the job.

    BTW, the primer is suitable for the paint.

    Any ideas anyone?

    Cheers, Elson

    Elson Markwick | The only good cat |ACSnet:  el…@otc.otca.oz.au
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  7. admin says:

    In article <4…@otc.otca.oz>, Elson Markwick writes:
    > All this brings up a question I have regarding re-spraying.  I am in the process
    > of respraying my car (only have a couple of panels done so far), but the results
    > have been less than I’d hoped.  When the paint dried (it’s a rapid drying
    > acrylic), the finish was dull. …
    > I went over the paint with a 1600
    > grade wet and dry, followed by cutting compound, followed by polish.  This
    > improved the finish considerably, but the paint still appears dull looking.

    Seems like that _should_ have helped.  Maybe you need to do it some
    more?

    Now I’m getting a bit outside of my experience, but…
    The `rapid drying’ may be part of the problem:  I think quicker drying
    paints tend to be duller (lacquer dries fast), whereas the slower drying
    are glossier and less succeptible to orange peel.  On the other hand,
    they are more succeptible to runs.
    [I managed to get a little of each :>]

    >    .. FYI, the spraying was done on a cold day, with overcast sky.(All I
    > had available at the time).  

    The chemistry is also important.  When I bought my paint, they asked me
    under what conditions I was going to paint: There are at least 3 types
    of thinner for each kind of paint that would be used in different
    temperatures; using the wrong one apparently affects the finish quality
    (partly through drying time, I think?).  Then, there are  various
    additives that are `necessary’ when painting in high/low temps, high/low
    humidity, how/low stock price of Dupont :>  (ie. the additives aren’t
    always cheep!).  I used a hardener additive which was supposed to
    improve the gloss and durability — seemed to work.

    Hopefully, you’ve got a friendly relation with the body shop supply
    where you bought your paint. I’d tell them what you used and what
    happened.  Then tell them what conditions you’re planning on painting in
    and get whatever additives they recommend.

  8. admin says:

    Dick Lucas writes

    > Tom asks…..
    > >Some people say that you only should buff a car if the paint is oxidized, or
    > >if you can’t get a good shine with a paint protectant/way.
    > Generally, the only "paint" requiring buffing to get a good shine is lacquer.

    The _*ONLY*_ paint you can buff is lacquer. You can _*NOT*_ buff enamel.

    > Try it by hand with some rubbing compound (du Pont 7 comes to mind) until
    > the orange peel effect is gone, and then finish it with polishing compound.

    Go to an auto-body and paint shop and ask them if you have lacquer or enamel.

    If you have lacquer, find the most innocuous spot on the car as possible, and  
    try the above, so you can see what the effects will be without effecting the  
    most readily-viewable part of the car.

    If it’s enamel, you’re screwed. You’ve just paid tuition on the auto-paint  
    learning curve.

    > Have fun and get lots of liniment for those sore muscles you will have.

    Or, use the right tools.

  9. admin says:

    Thomas Hill writes

    >    Dick, "con" has nothing to do with this. The paint simply wasn’t rubbed
    > out since it was painter a few months ago.

    Better hope it was painted with lacquer. If it’s enamel, you’re toast.

  10. admin says:

    Bruce R. Miller writes

    > I think Dick’s point was that Lacquer is the only paint that _has_ to be
    > rubbed out.

    Lacquer is the only paint that _*CAN*_ be rubbed out.

    > I understand it, more likely to ruin if you try to buff it
    > if it wasn’t applied right.

    correct.

  11. admin says:

    Elson Markwick writes

    > I am in the process
    > of respraying my car, but the results
    > have been less than I’d hoped.

    For openers, what kind of paint are you using?

        |_| Lacquer
        |_| Acrylic Enamel
        |_| Polyurethane Enamel

    What kind of a spray-room do you have?

         |_| home-made
         |_| in the driveway
         |_| ventilated

    What is the ambient temperature when you spray?
    Did you check the viscosity of the paint and adjust with reducer if not
      up to the paint manufacturer’s specs?

  12. admin says:

    In article <7…@tamsun.tamu.edu>, Charles Herrick writes:
    > Bruce R. Miller writes

    > > I think Dick’s point was that Lacquer is the only paint that _has_ to be
    > > rubbed out.

    > Lacquer is the only paint that _*CAN*_ be rubbed out.

    Are we working under different definitions of "rubbed out" or "buffed"?
    I painted my car using Dupont acrylic enamel.  I managed to get some
    orange peel, mostly on the hood & top — hey, it was my first time!

    I fixed it up 95% by doing the following:
     `color sanding’ : wet sanding using 1200 or 1600 (I forget which) grit paper.
            I used a small square of rubber ~2mm thick as a block to
            keep from making grooves where my fingertips were.
     `buffing’:  Used a medium (I think, do I need to check?) compound from
            Mequeiurars (sp?) and an electric buffer.
     `idunno’ : Used a haze-removing compound from Meg. & buffer.
     `waxed’  : what to say.

    Whatever you call it, it worked.  I’d be a bit embarrassed on a Concours
    d’Ellegance, but in a row of the average dull-finished, orange-peeled
    brand new cars, it looks pretty damned good.

    All this was suggested by the teacher of my body shop class who’s earned
    a certain amount of credibility  (no offense).
    Where is it that we are misunderstanding each other?

    > > I understand it, more likely to ruin if you try to buff it
    > > if it wasn’t applied right.

    > correct.

    Well, I can’t remember the names of all the fancier paints, but I was
    referring to the clear-coat cyanide-plutonium stuff.

  13. admin says:

    Well, I’m no paint expert, but I’ve done it more time than I care to  
    remember.  Sounds to me like the thinner may be the culprit, providing,
    of course, that the paint isn’t enamel.  There are several things that also
    come to mind.  Was there any kind of contaminent in the gun you’re using?
    That’s always a good one. Make 100% sure the equipment you’re using is clean
    and that the airhose has an evaporator on it to get the water out of the
    line.  A good paint booth is another must.  Someone else mentinoed that
    already.  I’ve done paint jobs in garages that came out looking ok, but
    there’s no good substitute for clean environment!  That’s about all that
    comes to mind right away.  Quick thinners sometimes come out looking pretty
    lousy, IMHO.

    I’ve always used RM-88 thinner (medium) and DuPont paints.
    (not that that really matters…of course)

    As for buffing– the greatest stuff I’ve ever seen is a liquid made
    by 3M.  I don’t know the number right off hand, but this stuff works
    much better than the paste compound and the chance of burning the paint is
    really reduced.   Once buffed, we polished the car with Mirror Glaze and
    the thing came out looking like glass.

    That’s my two cents….

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  14. admin says:

    In article <7…@tamsun.tamu.edu>, cnh5…@maraba.tamu.edu (Charles Herrick) writes…

    >The _*ONLY*_ paint you can buff is lacquer. You can _*NOT*_ buff enamel.

    This point requires clarification.  Certain enamels, such as some
    factory "oven baked" finishes, and catalyzed acrylic enamels, can in
    fact be color sanded and buffed or rubbed out just like a lacquer
    finish.  Don’t tell me it doesn’t work since I did it on my own car.
    While the catalyzed acrylic enamel doesn’t "require" color
    sanding and rubbing, it does when it is your first paint job and
    you need to go back and repair a few boo-boos and bring out a little
    more gloss :-) :-)

    Steve
    ______________________________________________________________________________
     Steve Andersen (Apprentice Ducatisto)            ander…@oscar.ccm.udel.edu
     (302) 324-0888                                     ander…@zr1.ccm.udel.edu
     1992 Ducati 907 I.E.              1987 Yamaha SRX250 (mini-bike on steroids)
     DoD #0239

  15. admin says:

    cnh5…@maraba.tamu.edu (Charles Herrick) writes:
    >Thomas Hill writes
    >>    Dick, "con" has nothing to do with this. The paint simply wasn’t rubbed
    >> out since it was painter a few months ago.
    >Better hope it was painted with lacquer. If it’s enamel, you’re toast.

    i had a body man (or two) tell me that you can rub out enamel just like
    laquer.  just passing along what i was told.


    -brian
      _______________________________________________________________________
     |                       (this space for sale or rent)                   |
     |_______________________________________________________________________|

  16. admin says:

    From the jumbled mind of Steve Andersen writes

    > In article <7…@tamsun.tamu.edu>, cnh5…@maraba.tamu.edu (Charles Herrick)  
    writes…
    > >The _*ONLY*_ paint you can buff is lacquer. You can _*NOT*_ buff enamel.
    > Certain enamels, such as some
    > factory "oven baked" finishes, and catalyzed acrylic enamels, can in
    > fact be color sanded and buffed or rubbed out just like a lacquer
    > finish.

    Point well taken. However, if you use your average enamel and you compound-buff  
    it, you’ll just ruin it. Moral of the story … do business with a paint  
    supplier who is _*VERY*_ knowledgeable, don’t take even h(is/er) word for it  
    (get a tech-rep phone number of the paint manufacturer, call them and demand  
    product sheets for your paint) … in other words, do your homework.

    And here’s a completely different thread …

    Why not use PolyEurethane Enamel (DuPont IMRON, for example) over a two-stage  
    Epoxy primer (like DuPont Corlar), and say goodbye to the need to buff (if  
    we’re talking about a gloss here).

    You can even get Clear IMRON now, and add coats over your color coat(s).

    Plus, you get a flexibility and chemical resistance you wouldn’t believe.

    Any IMRON stories out there?

             Chuck Herrick

  17. admin says:

    In article <7…@tamsun.tamu.edu>, Charles Herrick writes:
    > [Yes! No! Yes! No! Deleted :>]
    > Point well taken. However, if you use your average enamel and you compound-buff  
    > it, you’ll just ruin it. Moral of the story … do business with a paint  
    > supplier who is _*VERY*_ knowledgeable, don’t take even h(is/er) word for it  
    > (get a tech-rep phone number of the paint manufacturer, call them and demand  
    > product sheets for your paint) … in other words, do your homework.

    I used what I assumed _was_ `average’ (modern) enamel, ie. Dupont acrylic
    enamel (w/ hardener added) [I forget which star it's named after].  And
    it worked fine.

    Can you fill me in on how the paint gets ruined?  Is it just that you
    can never get it glossy? Or it causes flaking? or …?

    I know you cant buff the two-stage (is that the term for clear coat?).
    The under coat is _supposed_ to be dull and the clear has to go on
    within a limited time: no time to buff.  And you cant buff the
    clear coat itself ’cause the clear wont be clear anymore.

    > And here’s a completely different thread …

    > Why not use PolyEurethane Enamel (DuPont IMRON, for example) over a two-stage  
    > Epoxy primer (like DuPont Corlar), and say goodbye to the need to buff (if  
    > we’re talking about a gloss here).

    OK, I’ll take that up.  Why not?  For my first paint job, it was too
    expensive to experiment with.  Too `permanent’ too: If you screw up, the
    whole thing’s gotta come off!
    But when I come around to my second paint job… Why not indeed!

    > You can even get Clear IMRON now, and add coats over your color coat(s).

    Sounds good!

  18. admin says:

    ————————- Original Article ————————-
    Path: news.yale.edu!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!maraba.tamu.e
    From: cnh5…@maraba.tamu.edu (Charles Herrick)
    Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech
    Subject: IMRON and screw it (was: To Buff Or Not To Buff???)
    Message-ID: <7971@tamsun.tamu.edu>
    Date: 22 Jan 92 22:46:47 GMT
    References: <21JAN199222510553@che.udel.edu>
    Sender: use…@tamsun.tamu.edu
    Lines: 28

    > And here’s a completely different thread …

    > Why not use PolyEurethane Enamel (DuPont IMRON, for example) over a two-stage
    > Epoxy primer (like DuPont Corlar), and say goodbye to the need to buff (if
    >we’re talking about a gloss here).

    > You can even get Clear IMRON now, and add coats over your color coat(s).

    > Plus, you get a flexibility and chemical resistance you wouldn’t believe.

    > Any IMRON stories out there?

    >       Chuck Herrick

    ***************************************************************************

    Imron is extraordinarily toxic.  Amateurs without effective protection should
    avoid it like the plague.  Most professional sprayers in my area (CT) are
    also refusing to use it.  There are alternatives, however.  My Avanti was
    sprayed with a product made by Spies-Hecker, a German (Swiss?  I can find out
    exactly if anyone is interested) firm.  The various activator and primer coats
    were fairly standard (similar to Corlar and its relatives) but the color coats
    and clear coats were an acrylic-urethane compound, similar to Imron but not
    toxic.  Its drying and curing properties were very easy to modify too, and it
    sprayed like a dream.  My painter wore only a respirator.  Each color
    coat was wet sanded within an hour or two of spraying and the clear was allowed
    to cure for about a month before sanding and buffing. (It could have been
    finished sooner had there been appropriate baking equipment.)  The clear was
    extraordinarily hard, but that made sanding and buffing easier; it was nearly
    impossible to burn through it.

    Now, about two years after, the only problem is that sand spray is pocking the
    clear coat around the lower rear of the front wheel wells and the occasional
    kicked up rock chips through the clear and color on the Avanti’s bull nose.
    All the sprayers I have talked to say that this is inevitable and will happen
    to Imron as well, despite the legends of its impact reisitance. It is also
    true that the flex of the Avanti’s glass body panels will stress crack
    standard acrylic paints.  None of this has happened with the urethane blends.

                     Reid Kaplan

  19. admin says:

    > > Why not use PolyEurethane Enamel (DuPont IMRON, for example) over a two-stage
    > > Epoxy primer (like DuPont Corlar), and say goodbye to the need to buff (if
    > >we’re talking about a gloss here).

    ….stuff deleted………

    > Imron is extraordinarily toxic.  Amateurs without effective protection should
    > avoid it like the plague.  Most professional sprayers in my area (CT) are
    > also refusing to use it.  

    ….more stuff deleted

    Just another note about Imron.  As the second poster noted, it is extremely
    toxic and should be handled with lotsa care.  Also, at least a few years ago,
    it had a reputation for being impossible to color match.  A damages body panel
    meant a complete repaint (The industry may have solved this one, my info is
    several years old).  

  20. admin says:

    KAP…@YaleADS.YCC.Yale.edu writes:
    >Imron is extraordinarily toxic.  Amateurs without effective protection should
    >avoid it like the plague.  Most professional sprayers in my area (CT) are
    >also refusing to use it.  

    I think you’re being a bit hard on Imron.  I personally prefer its
    competitor, Nitram, but have sprayed more than my share of Imron.  Imron’s
    fumes are extremely irritating, to the point where you won’t stay in
    the booth unprotected long enough to be poisoned.  The worse problem
    is that since you spray Imron and Nitram at high pressure, there is a
    LOT more overspray.  This overspray remains liquid as it drifts about
    and sticks to anything it touches.   THATs why most shops don’t like it.
    It goms up the booth, the workers, the exhaust system AND the parts of
    the car that are not protected.   Yeah, Yeah, I know the safety nazis
    at DuPont flood the trade with propaganda but to them water’s toxic.

    >My painter wore only a respirator.  

    See there’s where I have a problem.  I had it brought home to me very
    graphically the first time I sprayed dayglo red. Removed my high quality
    MSA dual filter mask and saw a small red rim around my nostrils.  Nowdays
    any time the spray gun comes out, so does the supplied air mask.  They’re
    not very expensive and it’s very nice to not be stoned or have a headache
    when you leave the booth.

    My longest experience to date is 15 years with a Nitram painted motorcycle
    trailer.  IT’s had about as much abuse as you could reasonably throw at it
    including bouncing off a few trees and being stored under a pine tree for
    most of its life.  There are NO stone bruises and when the pine crap is
    cleaned off, it still shines like new.  IMHO, it’s worth the effort
    to properly lay urethane paint.

    John

    John De Armond, WD4OQC        | "Purveyors of speed to the Trade"  (tm)
    Rapid Deployment System, Inc. |  Home of the Nidgets ™
    Marietta, Ga                  | "It’s not a bald spot, its a solar panel for  
    j…@dixie.com                 |  a sex machine."

  21. admin says:

    I painted my Camaro with IMRON YEARS ago.   it was a double edged
    sword.   the paint was beutiful and HARD.   Someone tryed to key
    my car and barely managed to scratch the surface…  It can be
    Buffed out in these cases…..   The bad part was that acid rain
    (according to DUPONT) caused the paint to crack on all upward
    facing surfaces after about 5-6 years…   I had to pay MUCH MUCH
    money to have someone sand the old paint off to repaint it!
    it took the guy quite some time to get through the IMRON.  If you use
    Imron, don’t listen to people who say it doesn’t need waxing.
    ACID RAIN WILL DESTROY IT over time.  If I had waxed it regularly I probably
    wouldn;t have had the cracking problem.
    greg

  22. admin says:

    In article <1992Jan23.191821.20…@news.yale.edu> KAP…@YaleADS.YCC.Yale.edu writes:

    >All the sprayers I have talked to say that this is inevitable and will happen
    >to Imron as well, despite the legends of its impact reisitance. It is also
    >true that the flex of the Avanti’s glass body panels will stress crack
    >standard acrylic paints.  None of this has happened with the urethane blends.

    I second the comment about Imron being very toxic.  In addition it
    seems that Imron is very stiff (high Young’s modulus) and therefore
    unsuitable for flexible surfaces.  I have seen bicycles painted with
    Imron which had fine cracks in the finish where the (CroMo steel)
    frame had flexed.  I think it would definitely not work on fiberglass
    or something like a Fiero or a Saturn.

  23. admin says:

     j…@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
                        (stuff deleted)

    >See there’s where I have a problem.  I had it brought home to me very
    >graphically the first time I sprayed dayglo red. Removed my high quality
    >MSA dual filter mask and saw a small red rim around my nostrils.  Nowdays
    >any time the spray gun comes out, so does the supplied air mask.  They’re
    >not very expensive and it’s very nice to not be stoned or have a headache
    >when you leave the booth.                       ^^^^^^           ^^^^^^^^

    It is true that all the real good sprayers (6) I have known are crazy
    or artistic free spirits or something.  They all have refused to wear
    full protective gear throughout their careers – which in all cases have
    been shortened by health problems.
    Only one is now left in the restoration business and he has been told
    by his doctor that his liver is ruined ( BTW, the doc said a significant
    route for poisoning was absorption of gasses through the eyeballs ).  Yet
    John won’t even wear a respirator now.  I watched him retch after he sprayed
    my 240Z.
    Another quirk of all these guys is that they hate to do any other kind of
    body work – they only like to spray paint, and an occasional FRP sculpting
    job.  I can’t tell if they were nuts to begin with or spraying made them that
    way.  But enough of this…..

                       Reid Kaplan

  24. admin says:

    KAP…@YaleADS.YCC.Yale.edu writes

    > Imron is extraordinarily toxic.  Amateurs without effective protection should
    > avoid it like the plague.  Most professional sprayers in my area (CT) are
    > also refusing to use it.

    Yeah, it’s the isocyanates which are the culprits, I believe.

    I believe you’re OK with an excellent respirator and a very well ventilated  
    booth, but you’re right, if it’s a garage-’n'-paper-mask job, don’t use IMRON.

            Chuck

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