Technical aspects of automobiles

Bizzare Starter Motor Problem

Scroll down for diagnosis.  Textbooks and FSM of no value.

Symptom:  This is an intermittant starter malfunction.  Most of the time,
when the key is turned to "start" the engine cranks normally.  Sometimes,
however, there is a momentary delay before starter engagement.  During this
delay, there is no sound from the starter or solenoid. The delay can range
from a fraction of a second to several seconds, but the engine always
cranks.  Sometimes it helps when the key is switched several times.  When
the key is in the start position, the engine warning light illuminates and
the dash voltmeter dips.  The engine is an inline four, turbocharged, fwd
configuration.  What caused this odd fail to crank difficulty?  Answer
below.
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x

The starter motor heat shield.  The heat shield is a composite of
insulation fiber with a heavy foil relector.  When the shield deteriorated,
the foil came into contact and shorted the relay-actuated solenoid power
input terminal. When the switch goes to start, the solenoid terminal is
partially or fully grounded, depending on the corroded foil surface
condition.  The unfused solenoid power input would arc or melt a hole in
the foil, at which time enough current would feed into the solenoid to
actuate it and close the starter motor contacts.   From engine operation,
the loosened foil would move about, sometimes shorting the terminal and at
other times, not, causing a difficult-to-diagnose problem.  When the
problem was resolved, the foil was full of burned spots and holes. The
starter and terminals are not readily visible for mechanic’s inspection or
attachment of multi-tester leads in this model, making the intermittant
even harder to find.

.
posted by admin in Без рубрики and have Comments (12)

12 Responses to “Bizzare Starter Motor Problem”

  1. admin says:

    On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:20:05 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:

    TOP POST

    Sounds like a fire hazard to me…

    shakiro

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > Scroll down for diagnosis.  Textbooks and FSM of no value.

    > Symptom:  This is an intermittant starter malfunction.  Most of the time,
    > when the key is turned to "start" the engine cranks normally.  Sometimes,
    > however, there is a momentary delay before starter engagement.  During this
    > delay, there is no sound from the starter or solenoid. The delay can range
    > from a fraction of a second to several seconds, but the engine always
    > cranks.  Sometimes it helps when the key is switched several times.  When
    > the key is in the start position, the engine warning light illuminates and
    > the dash voltmeter dips.  The engine is an inline four, turbocharged, fwd
    > configuration.  What caused this odd fail to crank difficulty?  Answer
    > below.
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x
    > x

    > The starter motor heat shield.  The heat shield is a composite of
    > insulation fiber with a heavy foil relector.  When the shield deteriorated,
    > the foil came into contact and shorted the relay-actuated solenoid power
    > input terminal. When the switch goes to start, the solenoid terminal is
    > partially or fully grounded, depending on the corroded foil surface
    > condition.  The unfused solenoid power input would arc or melt a hole in
    > the foil, at which time enough current would feed into the solenoid to
    > actuate it and close the starter motor contacts.   From engine operation,
    > the loosened foil would move about, sometimes shorting the terminal and at
    > other times, not, causing a difficult-to-diagnose problem.  When the
    > problem was resolved, the foil was full of burned spots and holes. The
    > starter and terminals are not readily visible for mechanic’s inspection or
    > attachment of multi-tester leads in this model, making the intermittant
    > even harder to find.

  2. admin says:

    There is a set of copper contacts in the starter. Then you engage the
    starter solenoid by turning the key, these contacts slam into each
    other while one of them is turning. Over time these parts wear and
    pit. Eventually, they become so worn down that they do not always make
    contact, or may not make contact right away.

    Look around your local area. I found a place near me that rebuilds
    starters and alternators. They do NOT do re&re. So if you take the
    starter out and give it to them, they will take it apart and fix it. I
    had a mobile mechanic to the re & re for, IIRC, $30. They pulled apart
    the starter. Sure enough, copper contacts – 35 cents. And about $40
    labour to machine one of the internal parts smooth again, and
    re-assemble the starter. So total cost was about $80 parts, labour,
    taxes. oh, and a one year warranty. Not too shabby.

    And, since I got it done before the starter totally died, I was never
    left stuck somewhere (saved a tow charge! :)

    hth

    On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:20:05 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    <nob…@dizum.com> wrote:
    >Scroll down for diagnosis.  Textbooks and FSM of no value.

    >Symptom:  This is an intermittant starter malfunction.  Most of the time,
    >when the key is turned to "start" the engine cranks normally.  Sometimes,
    >however, there is a momentary delay before starter engagement.  During this
    >delay, there is no sound from the starter or solenoid. The delay can range
    >from a fraction of a second to several seconds, but the engine always
    >cranks.  Sometimes it helps when the key is switched several times.  When
    >the key is in the start position, the engine warning light illuminates and
    >the dash voltmeter dips.  The engine is an inline four, turbocharged, fwd
    >configuration.  What caused this odd fail to crank difficulty?  Answer
    >below.
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x
    >x

    >The starter motor heat shield.  The heat shield is a composite of
    >insulation fiber with a heavy foil relector.  When the shield deteriorated,
    >the foil came into contact and shorted the relay-actuated solenoid power
    >input terminal. When the switch goes to start, the solenoid terminal is
    >partially or fully grounded, depending on the corroded foil surface
    >condition.  The unfused solenoid power input would arc or melt a hole in
    >the foil, at which time enough current would feed into the solenoid to
    >actuate it and close the starter motor contacts.   From engine operation,
    >the loosened foil would move about, sometimes shorting the terminal and at
    >other times, not, causing a difficult-to-diagnose problem.  When the
    >problem was resolved, the foil was full of burned spots and holes. The
    >starter and terminals are not readily visible for mechanic’s inspection or
    >attachment of multi-tester leads in this model, making the intermittant
    >even harder to find.

  3. admin says:

    did you actually read his post?

    "NewMan" <CloakedRun2…@yahoo.ca> wrote in message

    news:qral229p5qjdpojbmj245k9utofdidlkno@4ax.com…

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > There is a set of copper contacts in the starter. Then you engage the
    > starter solenoid by turning the key, these contacts slam into each
    > other while one of them is turning. Over time these parts wear and
    > pit. Eventually, they become so worn down that they do not always make
    > contact, or may not make contact right away.

    > Look around your local area. I found a place near me that rebuilds
    > starters and alternators. They do NOT do re&re. So if you take the
    > starter out and give it to them, they will take it apart and fix it. I
    > had a mobile mechanic to the re & re for, IIRC, $30. They pulled apart
    > the starter. Sure enough, copper contacts – 35 cents. And about $40
    > labour to machine one of the internal parts smooth again, and
    > re-assemble the starter. So total cost was about $80 parts, labour,
    > taxes. oh, and a one year warranty. Not too shabby.

    > And, since I got it done before the starter totally died, I was never
    > left stuck somewhere (saved a tow charge! :)

    > hth

    > On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 02:20:05 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
    > <nob…@dizum.com> wrote:

    >>Scroll down for diagnosis.  Textbooks and FSM of no value.

    >>Symptom:  This is an intermittant starter malfunction.  Most of the time,
    >>when the key is turned to "start" the engine cranks normally.  Sometimes,
    >>however, there is a momentary delay before starter engagement.  During
    >>this
    >>delay, there is no sound from the starter or solenoid. The delay can range
    >>from a fraction of a second to several seconds, but the engine always
    >>cranks.  Sometimes it helps when the key is switched several times.  When
    >>the key is in the start position, the engine warning light illuminates and
    >>the dash voltmeter dips.  The engine is an inline four, turbocharged, fwd
    >>configuration.  What caused this odd fail to crank difficulty?  Answer
    >>below.
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x
    >>x

    >>The starter motor heat shield.  The heat shield is a composite of
    >>insulation fiber with a heavy foil relector.  When the shield
    >>deteriorated,
    >>the foil came into contact and shorted the relay-actuated solenoid power
    >>input terminal. When the switch goes to start, the solenoid terminal is
    >>partially or fully grounded, depending on the corroded foil surface
    >>condition.  The unfused solenoid power input would arc or melt a hole in
    >>the foil, at which time enough current would feed into the solenoid to
    >>actuate it and close the starter motor contacts.   From engine operation,
    >>the loosened foil would move about, sometimes shorting the terminal and at
    >>other times, not, causing a difficult-to-diagnose problem.  When the
    >>problem was resolved, the foil was full of burned spots and holes. The
    >>starter and terminals are not readily visible for mechanic’s inspection or
    >>attachment of multi-tester leads in this model, making the intermittant
    >>even harder to find.

  4. admin says:

    <jody7…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

    news:1143588558.857564.257740@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com…
      At any rate, what would cause

    > the bolts to work loose besides someone loosening them?  Anybody got
    > any recommendations on what I should tell the mechanic?

    Every ball joint I ever replaced had a cotter pin to hold the nut in place.

    The replacement joint itself is normally held in place by three bolts, which
    replace the original rivets.

    $550 for ball joints sounds high…REALLY high.

    I don’t know who is humping you, but I would suspect that someone is, or
    has.

  5. admin says:

    One of the top causes of a failure is the previous repair. You had your
     ball joints replaced and they are loose. My first thought is the
    installer did not tighten them properly. If you can tighten them and
    remove the play, perhaps you will want to go elsewhere for the
    alignment.

  6. admin says:

    "Al Bundy" <MSfort…@mcpmail.com> wrote in message

    news:1143643986.130336.189680@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…

    > One of the top causes of a failure is the previous repair. You had your
    >  ball joints replaced and they are loose. My first thought is the
    > installer did not tighten them properly. If you can tighten them and
    > remove the play, perhaps you will want to go elsewhere for the
    > alignment.

    If I understand what he is saying, it is not the main nut on the ball joint,
    but rather the three bolts that replace the rivets which are loose.

    I have used this type of ball joint a lot, but never had them loosen.

    Maybe the guy who replaced them originally drilled them out too big
    in the first place.  That can happen with a goober at the helm.   Or
    maybe he just didn’t tighten them. (And, maybe the new mechanics DID
    loosen them.  Anybody who would quote $500 for this job is nigh onto
    a thief, IMO.)

    In either case that situation could be repaired by fitting proper bolts and
    retightening.  If it is an overdrilling situation, just drill to the most
    appropriate
    size and  install new bolts.

    I use Loctite on the nuts in this type of installation, but I guess a self
    locking nut would work as well.  I have seen some bolts that come with the
    ball joints that are not very strong.  This is another reason to replace
    them
    with good quality strong bolts.

  7. admin says:

    If you tighten the bolts, does the play go away? Those bolts should
    have either lock washers or lock bolts to prevent this. As for the
    price, that sounds about right as long as they were using good parts,
    not the plain white box stuff.

  8. admin says:

    <jfrancis…@gmail.com> wrote in message

    news:1143667512.283295.101110@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com…

    > If you tighten the bolts, does the play go away? Those bolts should
    > have either lock washers or lock bolts to prevent this. As for the
    > price, that sounds about right as long as they were using good parts,
    > not the plain white box stuff.

    If you tighten the bolts, the play NORMALLY goes away.  Depends on
    why the play is there in the first place.

    I strongly dissent that $500 plus is ‘about right’ to replace two ball
    joints.

    Without a hydraulic lift, I can do the job in no more than 1.5 hours.  At
    MOST
    $150 in labor.  I believe you are talking about $20-30 each for the ball
    joints.
    (I haven’t checked since I dont have the exact model.)

    So, $250 would make me very happy.  We havent included alignment, which
    may not be necessary anyway, but is certainly always a good idea.  Alignment
    here
    costs $60.

    $310 does not equal $500-550.

  9. admin says:

    <jody7…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

    news:1143588558.857564.257740@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com…

    > I took my S10 to a mechanic today to check the alignment and possibly
    > replace the idler arm.  The mechanic said my ball joints need to be
    > replaced.  I had them replaced not too long ago.  I was amazed at the
    > amount of play in the wheel when he rocked it back and forth.  They
    > were going to charge me $550 to replace the ball joints.  I told him
    > I’d have to think about it.  So I took my truck home and checked out
    > the ball joints myself.  It appears that bolts that hold the lower ball
    > joint to the control arm are loose.  And this is what is causing the
    > play in my wheel.  However, the mechanic failed to notice this…or
    > perhaps they were loosened on purpose.  At any rate, what would cause
    > the bolts to work loose besides someone loosening them?  Anybody got
    > any recommendations on what I should tell the mechanic?

    If they were that loose you should have noticed shimmy or some other
    problem at highway speeds I think.  If I were you I would check with
    the Better Business Bureau to see if this mechanic has any complaints
    filed against him.

    Ted

  10. admin says:

    First of all, we don’t know what year this thing is or if it is two or
    four wheel drive. If its 2 wheel drive, I will give you an hour and a
    half. If its 4 wheel drive, no way in an hour and a half for both.
    Second, ball joint prices are going to be higher at a garage. You don’t
    expect to pay 20 or 30 dollars for joints at a garage do you? The shop
    would not stay in business for long if they did.  4 wheel drive ball
    joints are almost double the price as 2 wheel drive joints.

  11. admin says:

    <jfrancis…@gmail.com> wrote in message

    news:1143735985.408280.324790@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com…

    > First of all, we don’t know what year this thing is or if it is two or
    > four wheel drive. If its 2 wheel drive, I will give you an hour and a
    > half. If its 4 wheel drive, no way in an hour and a half for both.
    > Second, ball joint prices are going to be higher at a garage. You don’t
    > expect to pay 20 or 30 dollars for joints at a garage do you? The shop
    > would not stay in business for long if they did.  4 wheel drive ball
    > joints are almost double the price as 2 wheel drive joints.

    You’re right.  We don’t know exactly what this thing is.  I had assumed
    a rather ordinary case.

    Garages often get a better price than the rest of us, but, even so, it is
    not unusual to mark up the part (cost * 3) or so.

    I would not personally pay any garage $500 to replace two standard ball
    joints, unless I were caught in a heck of a bind.

    But not every individual can or will take on a job like this either.

  12. admin says:

    understood. Standard 2wd ball joints 500 is too much.

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